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Are you prepared to give an answer, a reason for the hope that you have?
We’re told in 1 Peter 3:15 to always be ready—and maybe, especially now.
Maybe the world needs that hope more than ever.
It’s part of what makes The Salvation Army what it is. As General Lyndon Buckingham will tell you, we are visible which signals that we are available.
And why? Well, Salvation is in the name.
General Buckingham is the international leader of The Salvation Army, having assumed the office in August 2023. He has served alongside his wife Commissioner Bronwyn Buckingham in appointments from New Zealand to Canada to Singapore.
He is focused on finding ways for The Salvation Army to be more effective in fulfilling its mission, starting with our own personal testimony.
And he’s on the show to share more about how we can be ready and be looking.
Show highlights include:
- More about General Buckingham’s interests and passions.
- How he came to follow Jesus and enter full-time ministry an officer in The Salvation Army.
- What he loves most about The Salvation Army.
- The General’s “three big ideas of the movement.”
- How the General responds to statistics on church attendance being down globally in the wake of the pandemic, and what it means for The Salvation Army.
- The role he’s seen testimony play in effective evangelism.
- How he would encourage Salvationists to share their faith with others.
- A word of blessing for 2024.
Listen and subscribe to the Do Gooders Podcast now. Below is a transcript of the episode, edited for readability. For more information on the people and ideas in the episode, see the links at the bottom of this post.
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Christin Thieme: Well, General Buckingham, welcome to the Do Gooders Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.
General Lyndon Buckingham: Pleasure. Great to be here.
Christin Thieme: Absolutely. We’re excited to hear more from you and learn from your wisdom. As we get started here, I’m wondering if you can tell us who you are as a person. Many people who are listening will know that you are the General, the leader of The Salvation Army internationally, but who are you? What are your interests and passions?
General Lyndon Buckingham: Yeah, I think that the best way to answer that question is to sort of define it by my relationships. So, first of all, I’m an enthusiastic follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. That tells you something about who I am. I’m a husband to my wife, Bronwyn, been married for 38 years. I’m a father to my son Daniel, who has a wife called Juanita, and my daughter Emma, who has a husband called Jaden. And I’m a grandfather. I have three grandchildren. Israel, 7, Toby, 4, and Margo, I think, about eight and a bit months old at the time of this recording. So I’m all of those things, and all of those things help describe who I am as a person.
I think others would tell you that I am optimistic by nature. I have a ton of energy. I always believe there’s a way and so I tend to be enthusiastic. Some would say maybe a little too enthusiastic, but optimistic and full of confidence that we can completely rely on the promises that God has made to us. And because of that, there is a confidence, I think, that I have not based on who I am but based on who he is. And that impacts my relationships, my approach to work, my ministry within the movement, all impacted because of my confidence in who God is and the promises that he’s made to us. I think that kind of gives you a brief insight into who I am.
Christin Thieme: Absolutely. And I’m wondering, along that line, how did you come initially to follow Jesus and also become a full-time minister of The Salvation Army, an officer?
General Lyndon Buckingham: Yeah, I mean, it’s a really… I’m glad you asked the question and there’s kind of two parts to this. If you’ve got the time, I’d like to share it.
Christin Thieme: Yes.
General Lyndon Buckingham: When I was a young boy, maybe six or seven years of age, I was attending a Salvation Army congress event. And at the very end of a Sunday morning meeting, somebody from the platform said, “If you would like to meet Jesus, come to the front. Now, a little boy’s mind, I went, “Yeah, I’d like to do that.” So I went down to the front to meet Jesus, and I knelt at the mercy seat, and I waited for Jesus.
Christin Thieme: Looking around…
General Lyndon Buckingham: And after a little while, an arm was put around my shoulder, and a person started speaking to me. And in my little head, I was going, “Geez, I’m meeting Jesus.” And after the person started speaking, I said to myself, “This sounds like my Uncle Wes.” Of course, so I opened my eyes and looked, and it was my Uncle Wes, and to be honest, I was pretty disappointed. I mean, nothing wrong with my Uncle Wes, great guy, but wasn’t Jesus. And I think that little sense of sort of disappointment embedded itself in my heart and mind somehow.
And so, for the next several years, I would say that I was, I guess, the best description is a cultural Salvationist. I went through all the motions at Sunday school and junior band and singing company. I even became a senior soldier. But I think there wasn’t really anything real in terms of my own personal relationship. And it changed for me on the 12th of August 1979 at the youth councils. And I just had one of those beautiful moments where God just made himself wonderfully known to me. I just became aware of God’s absolute love for me, his unconditional love for me as demonstrated in the person of Jesus Christ and his gift to me on the cross.
And it went from my head just straight to my heart. And it was a very emotional experience for a young 17 year old. And I found myself at the mercy seat on this occasion, laughing, crying, repenting, receiving, acknowledging God’s goodness and his presence. And the truth is that in those moments, I offered myself to be an officer in The Salvation Army. I didn’t actually even wait for a call. I mean, a confirmation came later on. But I was so enthusiastic about what I was experiencing in God that my heart response was to say, “You can have all of me.” So I signed a little candidate’s form right there and then on the 12th of August 1979, and it was a tear-off section, and I gave a piece of it, the piece that goes back to the officers I gave, and I kept the other piece in my Bible, and it’s still in my Bible. I still have it.
Christin Thieme: Oh, wow.
General Lyndon Buckingham: It’s in my Bible. And it’s a constant reminder to me of the physical, the emotional and the spiritual reality of that encounter completely changed not only my life but the course and direction of my life, 1979.
Christin Thieme: I love that you have that tangible piece of that day too. That’s amazing.
General Lyndon Buckingham: Amazing.
Christin Thieme: So, since that time, you have been part of The Salvation Army in so many different various capacities. What do you personally love about the organization, about The Salvation Army?
General Lyndon Buckingham: I mean, that’s a really good question. And there’s so many things. I mean, I’d have to be honest and say there are so many things that many of us carry as sort of frustrations, but the frustrations don’t outweigh the fact that I am totally passionate about the sort of big ideas of the movement. What I love about the movement is that we want to be a people who unreservedly give praise and credit to God for who he is, for what he does in the world, for his power, for his grace, for his mercy, for his love. We want to give him credit. And I love that about the movement.
I also love about the movement that, historically, and I want to believe that even present day, we’ve been a people that are about proclamation. We want people to know the good news that God is making salvation open and available to the whosoever. And I think in our history, I think even in my family’s history within the movement, there has always been this strong desire that people should know the good news. That experience that I had in 1979, I want people to know about that. And one of the things I love about the movement is that the movement has always been on the front foot of wanting people to know the good news of God’s love for them in the person of Jesus. I love that.
The other thing I love about the movement is that we have been, throughout our years, not content with just telling people the good news, but we’ve wanted to demonstrate something of the values of the Kingdom through action. And so our care of the vulnerable, our wanting to go after those that need help, our desire to be advocates for people, to be a voice for the voiceless, to pursue justice actions. This sort of salvation with the sleeves rolled up piece, not just speaking about the gospel, but doing the gospel, doing the good news of a Kingdom where people are embraced by the love of God and care for each other.
I love that about our movement. Do we do it well all of the times? Well, that’s for debate and discussion, but this is our intent. This is our heart. This is the heartbeat of who we are as a movement.
And the other thing I love about the movement is that we have been and are a holiness people. We have this kind of recognition, this sort of understanding that we are called to be the people of God in the world, right. And so this pursuit of holiness, this pursuit of purity and joy and fervor, this desire to be salt and light in the world, to be the flavor of God in the world, to be the aroma of Christ in the world, which some people won’t like, some people will despise, but other people are attracted.
They see something in the way we live, the way we conduct ourselves, what we make a priority, what we say no to, what we say yes to. This pursuit of being God’s people in the world through holy living is an inspiration to me, actually.
So those are the things I love about the Army. There are other natural things that have more to do with form than essence. The fact that we are visible and can be seen, which really at its best makes us available to people. I think that’s fantastic too. But it’s more the essence of who we are that I think lights my fire.
Christin Thieme: What would you point to then…I mean, there’s so many churches, there’s so many organizations, there’s so many faith-based organizations in the world. In your words, what would you point to that really sets us apart?
General Lyndon Buckingham: Yeah, is interesting because the moment you start to answer a question that says, “What sets us apart,” there’s a danger that you’re trying to say, “We’re better than,” rather than maybe just different than or a bit unique too or whatever.
Christin Thieme: Right.
General Lyndon Buckingham: So I very much want to see us as being part of the body of Christ, everybody having valuable contributions to make. But I think some of the things that are particularly useful so far as us is concerned is our clarity around mission and purpose. We know who we are, we know why we exist, and we know what we’re supposed to be doing in the world. I think that’s beautiful. I think our visibility, which signals availability, is a strength for us. And I think if it’s seen in those terms, “Hey, we’re here. We’re here to help. We’re here to share. We’re here to engage.”
Our visibility, which signals our availability, is beautiful. I think one of the things that’s unique to the movement that I appreciate from the desk that I’m sitting in right now is our global connectedness. We are not isolated. We’re not autonomous. We’re connected globally, and that brings beautiful strengths to the movement, and I love that. Clearly, I’m on fire about the centrality of Christ to the mission and ministry of The Salvation Army.
I think that what makes it distinct and beautiful are our people, and globally, the tapestry of people who are identifying with The Salvation Army as their spiritual home and are connecting with its ministry around the world is a beautiful thing. From officers to soldiers to staff to volunteers, there’s just a richness that comes to the movement because of our people. And I am very grateful that I get to see that sort of on a global scale because it’s just incredibly inspiring.
Christin Thieme: Absolutely. Yeah. You’re in your first year as General or international leader of The Salvation Army. What do you consider your top priorities as General?
General Lyndon Buckingham: Yeah. It’s interesting that we’ve been working since the International Leaders Conference in November of 2022 to start asking international leaders from around the world what they’re sensing God is saying to them about the priorities for the movement. We started to build a little bit of a conversation. And part of the strategy for that was to ensure that as we moved into 2023 and a High Council in May and the election of new leadership, that whoever that responsibility was entrusted to would come into the office with a sense of what is happening around the world in terms of global priorities or global direction or what things we should be focusing in on. We asked the leaders at that conference in November to come up with five top priorities, and over a number of days, we couldn’t get it down to less than 15.
And so we’ve been working ever since I came into the office strategizing and thinking about with the General’s Consultative Council, and others, how do we bring this down to what are the must-dos over this next period of time? And I think for me, they sort of fall into sort of three perhaps broad categories. There’s a thing about our people, there’s a thing about our mission in the world, and there’s a thing about our legacy. Are we, as a movement, taking responsibility for ensuring that what we’re engaged in is sustainable, that it’s got a lasting quality to it, that it will continue to impact for years and years to come? And so I want us to do some work on that to think about what are we currently committed to and what do we need to be committed to ensure that there’s some sort of legacy into the future.
Christin Thieme: Right.
General Lyndon Buckingham: As far as our people is concerned, there’s concern being expressed about the spiritual development of our people, the spiritual life of the movement. The confidence that Salvationists have to share their story and to share their testimony. A need for us to perhaps revitalize our corps-based ministries and to have some flourishing within our corps where people are coming to find Christ and joining the community of faith.
And how brave are we to explore essence over form when it comes to corps-based ministry? When it comes to our mission impact, globally, we serve a lot of people week by week, and we’re reaching them on all sorts of levels, but is it integrated? As a result of our ministries, of our caring ministries, are people coming to faith, are people finding their reconciliation with their creator as a result of encountering The Salvation Army?
So I think these things are starting to emerge as priorities for me. We’ve been talking within the movement about the danger of mission drift. That is the sense that subtly and without even being aware of it, we could move away as a movement from our first purposes, from the things that we were raised up to be and the things that we were raised up to do. So I think it’s important for me during my tenure to be a kind of champion of don’t forget who we are, what we were raised up to be, and what we were raised up to do, and let’s make those things the priorities, the basics, proclamation, caring for people, pursuing holiness, making a difference in the world. These are who we are, so let’s get some energy around that.
Christin Thieme: That’s right. That’s where that optimism and energy will come into play.
General Lyndon Buckingham: One can only hope.
Christin Thieme: Yeah, that’s right. When you talk about the mission and the movement, I’ve heard you express what you call three big ideas of the movement. Can you share a little bit about what those are?
General Lyndon Buckingham: Yeah, I referenced it earlier. I think that the three big ideas for me around The Salvation Army that I have articulated in the past is this whole idea of proclamation. You can’t be a movement or a part of the body of Christ, a part of the church that has the word salvation in it, right, and not be concerned about the sharing of the good news, the sharing of the message of salvation. We need to be tellers of this story. We’ve been entrusted with this beautiful story of God reconciling mankind to himself through his own son, Jesus Christ. It’s a beautiful story. It’s a powerful story. It’s the best story on the planet.
And we should be telling this story with all the energy, with all the enthusiasm, with all the creativity, with all the innovation, with all of the resource we can lay our hands on, we should be telling this beautiful, beautiful story. The Salvation Army has been excellent at it in the past. I want us to be excellent at it into the future. I want every Salvationist, you know, that is a part of the movement to feel incredibly confident about telling the story of God’s love and the person of Jesus Christ. And the best way to do that actually is through your own testimony.
That’s the transformation that’s come to you as a result of your encounter with God through Christ, right. So the power of your testimony added to the power of my testimony added to the power of a million people’s testimonies around the globe telling the good news is what we should be about. I would love us to be about that. That’s one of the big ideas and certainly one of the reasons that I responded so enthusiastically to the invitation to come to a Congress that was called Testify. I mean, how could you not get a little bit wrapped up about that, right?
Christin Thieme: That’s right.
General Lyndon Buckingham: The power of story, the power of a person’s story is so good. So I’m praying in these days that Salvationists around the world will regain a confidence, a confidence in the good news story of God’s love in the person of Jesus Christ, and we’ll be able to connect that to their own experience and share it in a natural, unforced, not pushy, because the Scripture say to us, “Always be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you, but do so in gentleness” [1 Peter 3:15]. Right. So there’s a way of being confident, enthusiastic and gentle about the proclamation. I’d love us to be engaged in that.
The second big idea, and I’m sorry I’m taking a lot of time here. But the second idea is, as I indicated before, this kind of demonstrating the gospel, not just talking about it. Now, over the years, particularly in the West, The Salvation Army has been very good. We’ve kind of professionalized a lot of the caring ministries. We’ve professionalized a lot of our social work. And so the average Salvationist is sitting in a congregation when it comes to practical demonstrations of the faith, “Well, what can I do?” But actually this caring ministry can actually be quite simple. it’s outworking. It’s the knocking on the neighbor’s door. “How are you?”
It’s the taking the cake across the street. It’s the caring for the… taking a bit of an interest in the person who’s sitting in the pew beside. There’s lots of ways in which an average Salvationist can demonstrate the gospel in the very living out of their lives and their interactions with needy, vulnerable, less fortunate people. And I would love us as a movement to recapture our imagination about how a local corps community can engage with their community in a way that demonstrates the values of the Kingdom. So that’s two.
Christin Thieme: Yeah. Back to that do something.
General Lyndon Buckingham: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. It’s like if all we become known is people that talk about it doesn’t have the same power or impact as it being demonstrated. When the fruit of the Spirit is experienced by somebody who comes into one of our communities, and they get wrapped in peace and gentleness and kindness and honesty and embrace and love, right, it’s like, “Wow, you’re not just telling me about it. I’m now experiencing it.”
Christin Thieme: Yeah.
General Lyndon Buckingham: That’s beautiful.
Christin Thieme: There’s something about it for your own faith too, right, of being engaged in that way. I mean, there’s something there for your own development as well.
General Lyndon Buckingham: Absolutely.
Christin Thieme: Yeah.
General Lyndon Buckingham: Absolutely. And that’s connected to the third big idea, which is this pursuit of holiness. “Be holy because I’m holy” [1 Peter 1:16]. This desire and this understanding that in surrendering ourselves to the Lordship of Christ and being empowered by his Holy Spirit, there is a transformation work going on in us. We are growing in Christlikeness.
We are growing in maturity, and we are becoming increasingly salt and light and fragrance and aroma in the world. And that is equally impactful. It’s equally impactful. So a holy people that give praise to God and live in the world as a people surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is a powerful tool for good on our planet. And I think it’s needed now more than ever before. And it’s a shame that there are people who are kind of giving up on the church at the very time that actually the church is most needed, that the bride is needed right now in our world.
There is an alternative way of living. We don’t have to be selfish. We don’t have to be greedy. We don’t have to be fighting each other. We don’t have to divide over certain issues. It is possible for us actually to demonstrate God’s desire and intent for his people, and we get to practice it on the planet.
Christin Thieme: Yeah.
General Lyndon Buckingham: Right.
Christin Thieme: Exactly. Well, it’s an interesting time. You mentioned the current state of everything that we’re in. Many will have heard about the church attendance numbers—that they are down globally in the wake of the pandemic. We know here in the U.S., just 22% of people say they attend church every week, according to Gallup. And that’s down 32% from 2000.
So just over 20 years ago, we’ve dropped 10%. We know The Salvation Army has not been immune to declines in attendance. So what does this mean for the Army? What can we do about it? I mean, you mentioned you’re coming to this event that’s focused on our need to testify. What do we do when we look at church attendance numbers?
General Lyndon Buckingham: Yeah. I mean, it is definitely a concern. I don’t think that anybody in the movement wouldn’t be expressing concern, but I’m still not without hope. I think it’s possible. Because the truth is in the midst of the decline that you are speaking of, there are examples of corps and churches that are flourishing and growing.
Against the trend, there are outliers that are bucking that trend. And rather than testifying to a decline, they’re saying, “Well, actually, we are meeting new people. We’re embracing new people, and in our community, our congregation, it’s growing.” And that’s not just happening in other denominations. That’s happening in The Salvation Army.
And globally, the picture for The Salvation Army, the global picture for The Salvation Army is actually a picture of growth. So some of the decline is isolated to certain parts of the world, and the West would be definitely in that category where there is a decline. So what do I think about that? Well, obviously, it’s disappointing, but I also believe it’s reversible. So that’s the good news. And one of the first things to bringing about a change is the willingness to name and acknowledge what’s actually going on.
So I think, for us, it’s being brave enough to say, “Yes, this is happening to us, too. So what are we going to do about it?” And I think that if we as a movement determine in our hearts that we actually want to be trend busters, that we actually want to make a concerted effort at every level of the organization to bust that trend around. We want to put resource, people, prayer, innovation, creativity, a willingness to experiment, a willingness to take risk, a willingness to make the essence of who we are more important than the form.
If we really want it, I believe that we can turn it around. We can change the trend. And in fact, I think, even post-pandemic, I’m happy to say even post-pandemic, although there was a dip as we start heading into 2024, and maybe the uncertainty of the world is driving a little bit of this, but there is just signs and evidence of return of people reconnecting, of people wanting to explore their faith in the context of so much uncertainty and anger and frustration and even fear.
So a combination of reigniting our people with a confidence to share the gospel, invitation, being intentional about inviting people to cabin experience, a willingness on our part to rearrange the house. When my family comes to visit, my family comes to visit, one of the things that I have to do in my little apartment is I have to be prepared to shift stuff around to make it possible for them to come and dwell and be happy. And so I think there’s some work for us to do within the movement to say, “How welcoming are we? How inviting are we? How comfortable do we make it for people to come and do their faith journey with us as a movement?”
And so I think that, if we are prepared not to bury our head in the sand, but to say, “Yes, it’s happening to us, too.” If we’re prepared to say, “Maybe we can’t just keep doing the same things and expect a different outcome, maybe we have to be a bit more creative, a bit more innovative, think a bit more outside the box.” I think that I personally believe we can turn it around even in the West.
Christin Thieme: Absolutely. So you’ve talked about the need for testifying, for proclaiming the good news as part of the mission of what The Salvation Army is. I’m wondering how has testimony changed your own spiritual life? And as a pastor, as a minister of The Salvation Army, how have you seen it play a role in effective evangelism?
General Lyndon Buckingham: As you know from earlier in the interview, I’ve obviously been in The Salvation Army all my life. So from the cradle to the age of 61, I’ve been a part of the movement. But I can remember, as a young person right up until maybe even after I became an officer, that a regular feature of our meetings was testimony. People telling their story. Inside the meeting, in the Sunday meeting, telling their story of what God has done for them, even just in this past week.
And in the midst of that, you get some fantastic stories of transformation and change. You hear the miracle. “I didn’t know what I was going to do, but God came through for me,” or whatever the case may be. And so there was a kind of familiarity within the movement of telling your story. I think we have to acknowledge, certainly I have to acknowledge, that in most of the congregations that I’ve been a part of in recent years, that’s a very unusual thing to have happen. And very rarely does it happen as part of a meeting.
It might be somebody’s invited to give a written word or whatever, but that freedom to share your story. Where I see it demonstrated most frequently these days is in recovery-type churches where people are telling their story of how God’s kept them sober for the last week or something. And they’re celebrating that, and it’s a beautiful thing. But you and I both know that somebody sharing their story about something that’s happening in their life or about what God has done for them is incredible. And we’ve been in meetings where the testimony has been more powerful than the sermon. We’ve all been there.
When you think, “Please stop. I’m dying here.” But what has saved the day has been this beautiful story of God’s transformational power. So, for me, testimony is really, really important because what happens as a result of the testimony is I’m encouraged. My faith is stirred. My appreciation for God is stirred. My convictions are heightened as a result of hearing what God’s doing in the lives of other people. And it’s very difficult to argue with somebody’s story about what God has done in their life.
Christin Thieme: That’s true.
General Lyndon Buckingham: So, man, I’m just absolutely thrilled about this Testify Congress. We’ve got to help our people rediscover the power of the story, the story of God’s love in Jesus, but their own story of what God has and is doing for them in these current days. So I hope we can sort of recapture it.
Christin Thieme: What’s your practical advice to someone, to a Salvationist, about sharing their faith? Maybe they’re a little nervous about it. They haven’t done it a lot. What’s your advice to them?
General Lyndon Buckingham: Practice. I mean, that sounds terrible, doesn’t it? But that’s the honest truth. You want to get good at something, practice it, right. So, in a corps-based setting, I would be saying to a half a dozen people, “You all know each other. You all care about each other. Practice it on each other. Practice sharing the good news of God’s love.” Practice is the only way. Well, not the only way. I think it’s the best way. Practice. And I think you practice on people that you feel comfortable with to the extent that it just becomes a natural part of who you are.
Christin Thieme: Yeah, like anything you become more comfortable the more you do it.
General Lyndon Buckingham: Correct. And I know that it’s perhaps easier for some people who are naturally outgoing or they’re noisy or they’re a bit zealot-like like me, and it’s easier. But the truth is, some of the most profound stories come from quiet, gentle, wise people who are attuned to the opportunity. I quoted the Scripture before about always being ready to give a reason for the hope that’s in you. And I think we should all be in that space. But I think the difference around testifying is equally, if you and I are walking in the Spirit, we know that the Spirit prompts us.
So there’s a kind of an intentionality in our lives that not only are we ready, but we’re also looking, we’re looking for the opportunity. Is there an opportunity in this conversation for me to give credit to God? I don’t have to. I’m not trying to win a soul here, but is there an opportunity for me to give God credit, to introduce God and faith in my journey into the conversation is the opportunity there? And if it is there, God help me to grab it.
Christin Thieme: Right.
General Lyndon Buckingham: It’s going to become so politically correct that we feel like our faith has to stay within ourselves. And I think we just have to find our courage and our fortitude and say, “No, no. I will seek the opportunities to give him praise.”
Christin Thieme: Well, General, it has been so lovely chatting with you. Thank you so much for sharing, and we’re looking forward to seeing you out West. I’m wondering, as a final question, if you could leave a word of Scripture, if there is something that you would want to say to all the Salvationists out there, every person listening, what would it be?
General Lyndon Buckingham: Well, I keep referencing this Scripture about always be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you.
Christin Thieme: It’s a good one.
General Lyndon Buckingham: I think that’s got to be the one, right?
Christin Thieme: Yes.
General Lyndon Buckingham: I think I would like to say one other thing. Often, before people encounter a Salvation Army corps community, they encounter an individual.
Christin Thieme: So true.
General Lyndon Buckingham: Still, most of the people who are being embraced into church life are coming because of their encounter with an individual. So don’t underestimate the potential that you are to the Holy Spirit for introducing and inviting people to have an encounter with the living God.
So be ready, be available, be fired up, be intentional, and God will create the opportunities for you to give him praise, for you to give him credit, and for you to share your story of transformation. Boy, if we could multiply that around the globe, we’ve reversed that trend.
Christin Thieme: That’s right. I love it. Well, thank you so much, General.
General Lyndon Buckingham: You’re welcome.
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